denny: (Politics)
Denny ([personal profile] denny) wrote2006-08-11 09:58 am
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Today's quotes... compare and contrast.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (USA Founding Father)

"Sometimes we may have to modify some of our own freedoms in the short term in order to prevent their misuse by those who oppose our fundamental values and would destroy all of our freedoms." -- John Reid (UK Home Secretary)


(second quote spotted in [livejournal.com profile] wechsler's journal)

[identity profile] hythloday.livejournal.com 2006-08-11 08:58 am (UTC)(link)
Like the right to bear arms? *innocent look*.

[identity profile] dennyd.livejournal.com 2006-08-11 09:11 am (UTC)(link)
As part of "a well regulated militia", I'm not completely against it.

[identity profile] borusa.livejournal.com 2006-08-11 09:04 am (UTC)(link)
What's an essential liberty?

[identity profile] borusa.livejournal.com 2006-08-11 09:24 am (UTC)(link)
I think it unlikely that it means all liberty is essential. If it does, then that implies that it's OK for me to break down your door and steal your stuff. Though you would have the liberty to shoot me in response. Libertarianism is not a recipe for a society I'd particularly want to live in.

So there must be some liberties that are essential. (And, as a corollary, some liberties that are not - presumably divided into those that are desirable and those that are undesirable).

I'm not sure that it's clear which liberties fall into what categories. And I don't think there's a clear consensus in our society on this question. I'd suggest that's where many of the problems lie. Particularly where liberties collide.

For example : Sinners and Winners man. Does his right of free speech and religion override my right to go about my business without being yelled at, insulted and generally abused by a twit with a megaphone?

[identity profile] dreamfracture.livejournal.com 2006-08-11 08:42 pm (UTC)(link)
It's important not to confuse libertarianism with anarchy.

[identity profile] antihope.livejournal.com 2006-08-12 02:46 am (UTC)(link)
I dunno about you, but I hate the idea that I have to go thru so many "security" checks just to travel (fly). I actually start feeling sick to my stomach, consider the security guards no better than any traitors, and try to convince myself I don't have a choice (I guess I could spend a week or so via train or boat) if I want to travel anywhere.

The bigger insult is that to get to the US from any other country, you have to go thru a 2nd screening. That should be considered an insult to the hosting countries, and to any American. Maybe the Americans (with the Blue passports) should just be given a separate line, and the visitors can be treated like non-citizens (illigal search and seisure).

Cars still kill more people than planes.

[identity profile] kaz-pixie.livejournal.com 2006-08-11 09:17 am (UTC)(link)
I'm sorry but any politician worth his salt should be able to put enough spin on publicity and enough handy get out clauses in the legislation so that the harm to civil liberties is disguised sufficiently. I think civil liberties are way to important to just be brushed under the carpet. Perhaps if the government are going to try and be upfront about this then they should make a list of all the civil liberty infringements they are making and put it to referendum.

Of course we've been heading down this route for years (since Michael Howard was Home Secretary) with all criminal law - Howard was sneaky enough to hide his civil liberty infringements in byelaws and small reversals of the burden of proof etc. Only people that know evidence law really ever see them and they seem too minor to make a big deal about. Now New Labour decide to go in with bulldozers and make lots of new and silly laws and unsuprisingly seem shocked when even more unsuprisingly lots of people say "oi, wait a minute".

*shakes head* all a big mess.
mr_magicfingers: (Default)

[personal profile] mr_magicfingers 2006-08-11 05:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I used that Ben Franklin quote in the aftermath to 9/11 and you'd be amazed the number of americans who had no idea who it was by, and weren't impressed when they found out.