denny | All the news that's good to beat with a large stick until it dies horribly.

Current Mood: mixed

All the news that's good to beat with a large stick until it dies horribly.

Dunno where that title came from, my fingers started moving before my brain did. Anyway.

I went out to the shopping centre this afternoon to try and find a book someone recommended in my recent bookshelf meme post. Wasn't at any of the bookshops I tried, so I had to order it (10 pounds? 10 bloody pounds for a paperback? No wonder no-one reads any more). Of course, it's impossible to wander around several bookstores without getting mugged by things you had no intention of buying until you saw them, so I'm now 6 books up and £20 down, not counting the one on order.

Went in McDonalds to get a snack while I was in the shopping centre. My right crutch slipped on the wet floor and I had to use the broken leg to prevent myself falling over. I'm very glad to say that this episode scared me a lot more than it hurt me - the impact of landing on the bad leg was actually more like a very strong stab of pins and needles and less like it felt when I lent on it the weekend after my birthday (i.e. agonising). I guess it's getting better.

Today's extensive hopping around on crutches appears to have given me a blister in the palm of my hand. Hopefully the hilarity this will cause will be slightly tempered by the fact that it's my left hand. :)

Arriving back home, I've just opened my mail and found that I've been made redundant. The slimy bastards I used to work for have actually laid me off while I'm off sick. Charming. If anyone knows of any interesting jobs (even short term contracts etc) for a perl/linux hacker, please do let me know... stuff I can do from home would be particularly welcome over the next month or two.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Hun, I would advise that you get straight down the CAB. They can't lay you off while you're sick, there are laws against that.

They're not stupid, they've taken advantage of various loopholes that the company structure allows. I suspect the company structure is that way specifically so that they can do this kind of thing.

Company structure does not override employment law. Our friendly HR admin will be checking this up...

Yeah, my dad's all excited about it too, keeps using the word tribunal. Personally I don't see anything coming of it. Here's the facts, let me know if you come up with anything interesting:

I work(ed) for IMS. For the last few months before my accident I was doing work for (and often in the offices of) M1, who had contracted IMS as a supplier of technical services. Both companies are afaik part of a group of companies called Atrium or something like that... they tend to share offices and/or have offices in the same buildings as each other, along with one or more other companies also working in related areas (and often with literally related directors - the level of nepotism within this bunch of companies is almost funny).

Anyway, the reason given for making me redundant is that 'the role at M1 has ceased', and "due to a downturn in contract work" "there are no other alternative positions available to offer [me] at this time".

I don't see anything to make a fuss about, legally speaking. Morally it sucks, but then I already knew that they were wankers and that they didn't like me much. *shrug*

I don't see anything to make a fuss about, legally speaking

Don't be so certain about that, I share a house with employment law specialist solicitor and hear about many cases like this. Obviously I'm not a solicitor and couldn't say (and even if I were I'd need all the details), but from what I've heard many companies try this frequently.

There are very specific procedures that must be followed and documented in order to force redundancy. If they have failed in any part (no matter how small) then you would be entitled to a healthy severance pay.

The circumstantial evidence certainly is in your favor, to the lay person (which is what a tribunal is made up of) it just sounds like they didn't want to give you sick pay.

Even if you don't have a particularly strong case, it often works out that a company will offer a settlement anyway as it would be cheaper than the legal fees of representation at a tribunal.

By the way, did you get a redundancy payment? If not, at the very least you will be entitled to some form of redundancy package.

Well, they've already paid me all my entitled company sick pay, I was only costing them statutory sick pay now which I believe they get back from the government anyway. They are offering me the usual redundancy package, i.e. four weeks notice and my holiday entitledment paid to me. I've only been there a year and a bit so I'm not entitled to anything other than that.

I didn't realise the tribunals were made up of 'real people'. That's interesting, thanks.

well, that sounds like redundancy all right - if they don't have a role they can offer you, there's not a lot you can do.

If you take them to a tribunal they will have to show that the role really has finished (and they haven't just filled it with another person, in which case they would be obliged to offer you the role back on your return to work, as it would remain your substantive post).

The law regarding temporary/contract employees and fulltime employees is pretty much the same - they cannot just dismiss you on grounds of sickness if there is work you could be doing, particularly if your sickness is going to be for a fixed period.

Ask a lawyer, I don't have the details. But AFAICT it doesn't matter who you worked for, the law will look very dimly on someone being dismissed while on non-permament sick leave on such a flimsy pretext.

IMS have to prove that you really are redundancy. You can complain of unfair selection for redundancy, meaning that they didn't take steps to avoid your redundancy, such as stopping overtime, asked for volunteers etc. They should offer you alternative work, and provide reasons why you are being made redundant and not other people. If they have made all IMS workers redundant, then that would be fair enough but they still have to make you a redundancy payment. (One weeks pay for each year you've worked there.)

It's worth consulting CAB or getting a form (IT1?) from your nearest Employment Tribunal. I think there's on in Bedford.

As far as I know, redundancy requires a "consultation period". They are required to let you know your job is "at risk", and consult with you for a period (varying depending on how many people have been made redundant at once, but no less than 30 days)..

It is worth checking your rights here, definately. Redundancy is a complex business, and it's up to your employer to make sure they have followed the correct process.

Its also worth noting that, again as far as I know, that "pay in lieu of notice" is tax-free when made redundant, whereas working your notice period is not.

Anyway, I agree with others, get some advice. CAB is free.

Aha, I wondered why they kept using that phrase. They've given me a 'consultation period' extending to the 13th of October, i.e. 10 days from the day they sent the letter, 4 of which aren't working days.

I'll keep an eye on the tax thing - they've been pretty sneaky about money in the past. I wonder why they didn't let me 'work' my notice, given that I'm on sick leave and it would cost them less. Or is that not allowed?

Go check here: http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/redundancy.htm

Read the employers guides as well as the employee's guides.

I'd rather you got the facts for yourself or got legal advice than I got something wrong. I'm just someone who's been on both sides of this particular thorny fence before, and this one smells fishy to me.

Thanks for all the links... will read them over this evening, have a think about what I might want to do tomorrow.

Also see there:

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/individual/unfair-pl712.htm

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/individual/fair-pl714.htm

Tell them from me that they are utter, lowlife bastards and they should all be called Alan.

Sorry to hear that they've done the dirty. I'm not an expert any more but depending on the circumstances you might be able to get them for unfair or wrongful dismissal.

are you left handed then? *duck*

My right crutch slipped on the wet floor and I had to use the broken leg to prevent myself falling over.

Mcdonalds escape another court case... luck lucky bastards...

glad to hear that you seem to be mending though...

Have you been made redundant, or dismissed?

If you've been made redundant, keep your eyes open - if they start advertising your substantive post, you can take them to a tribunal as clearly the role is not 'redundant'.

If you've been dismissed, the DTI says that a tribunal would "expect the employer to have discussed the position with the employee concerned and to be absolutely sure of the facts about the employee's state of health and whether he or she is incapable of doing his or her job, or likely to be persistently absent in the future. This may involve taking medical advice about the employee's condition by talking, with the employee's permission, to his or her doctor."

So basically they would be required to give evidence that they knew the details of your condition and when you were expected to return to full or part duties, and if you were likely to be persistently off sick in the future because of the injury.

There's also the issue of whether the injury constitutes a disability, which is defined as "a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on (a person's) ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities". An employer would be bound by the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 to prove that they had a relevant and substantive reason not to continue your employment and (if they have more than 15 employees) to prove that they had taken reasonable steps to allow you to continue work, including offering part-time, jobshare or work-from-home arrangements or altering workplace access.

It's definitely redundancy. Good idea about keeping an eye out for them re-advertising the job... although afaik they only ever use agencies, so I'm not likely to see any advertising in papers etc, and agencies aren't likely to contact an ex-employee about a role at a company without running it past the company first.

I emailed them recently with a tentative set of enquiries about 'back to work' working conditions for me (asking whether I could do half-days at first, and if it would be possible to work mostly from home for a while), and that seemed to be what set the ball rolling with regard to them getting rid of me. I don't think anything in that would be their reason for kicking me out though, I think it just reminded them that I existed.

definitely get this checked out by someone in employment law, as it's a bit unethical. Failing that, sue MacDonalds ;)

Twats.

I know nothing about employment law, mate, so I can't help you on this one.
What I can offer is my sympathy, andas well as that I think I'll send you a big ol' psychic stick across the ether, to help you beat them with.

All power to your arm in this one, mate.

d

That sucks about your job, am sorry to hear that :s

Had similar experince one time - was doing a 26 mile walk over Dartmoor, (in one day) known as the Abbot's Way which runs east to west. I was in an enourmous amount of pain - it's the only walk ive done that ive ever cried on (have been walking on a regular basis on Dartmoor for just over 3 years now) and Mr Brook (who was our 'sweep' and keeps an eye on our map reading) leant me his hiking poles. So i only went and got a massive blister on my hand which then POPPED and my god did it hurt. took my mind off the pain im my legs at any rate...

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

All the news that's good to beat with a large stick until it dies horribly.

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject